Directing Animator / Contributor
Posted:
Apr 6, 2008, 9:04 AM
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Does 'cartoon ignorance' bug you?
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Let me start off by saying that this is not a flame thread. That said, we're all basically animation experts here, so I thought I'd ask this:
Is anyone here bugged by others' ignorance of animation? You know, folks who can't tell the difference between Filmation and Hanna-Barbera or who think all anime is Speed Racer or Dragon Ball Z or Pokemon or people who call all CG animated moves Pixar?
I know this makes me sound like an elitist jerk/snob/know-it-all, but it bugs me, I must admit. Whenever someone describes Tom & Jerry or Droopy as Looney Tunes characters, my hair stands on end. I can name some examples:
-One day years ago I was watching CBS's game show Press Your Luck starring the late Peter Tomarken. During the obligatory "share friendly banter with the contestants" segment of the show, Peter spoke to a woman who lived in Arizona, where real roadrunners live. Peter mentioned that most people have only ever seen the cartoon Road Runner, then the lady chimes in "Yes, the Disney one". The Road Runner? Disney??? I could feel my blood starting to boil.
-My younger brother (who is a serious anime fan) rented a copy of the anime feature Tenchi Muyo in Love from the video store, and my family were all watching it together. About 35 minutes into the film, my mom asks, "When is Goku going to show up?" My 2 brothers and I exchanged quiet glances, then later on in private, the 3 of us shared a good laugh about it.
-Another anime generaliztion that bothers me is the common epithet, "All anime looks the same". To people who make that remark I usually say, "Oh, so you're telling me that Lupin III looks exactly like Voltron, which in turn looks exactly like Ghost in the Shell which looks exactly lke Crayon Shin-Chan." Half the time, I manage to make my point with that statement. The other half, I then have to explain what all of those shows are.
-A more recent example: I was having a conversation with some friends about Disney's Meet the Robinsons. One guy who really liked the movie gave this really eloquent impassioned speech, describing it as "possibly Pixar's best work". Then the rest of us had a polite chuckle and then had to inform him that Meet the Robinsons was not, in fact, Pixar.
-Finally, not technically cartoons, but for years my relatives have called everything featuring puppet characters 'Muppets', as if there was no such thing as puppetry before Jim Henson was born. Geez, Henson was a legend in the medium, no denying that, but it's not like the man invented puppetry or anything.
Anyone else had similar experiences/pet peeves? Please keep in mind that the purpose of this thread is NOT to make fun of others or to make anyone feel bad; since we're all animation scholars here, I'm just curious if anyone else on the board has any similar feelings or moments they'd like to share?
Agree? Disgaree? Comments? Complaints? Discuss. As for me, I'm off to my anger management class now. 
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Fanboyism (noun): The belief that Batman would win every fight he could ever be put in.
(This post was edited by Starburst on Apr 6, 2008, 9:23 AM)
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Supervising Animator
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Apr 6, 2008, 12:14 PM
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Not exactly cartoons-but people on youtube whenever they see Kermit on Sesame Street clips get all confused like "What's Kermit doing on Sesame Street?" Those who have seen "Old School" Sesame Street know that Kermit had been on Sesame Street as well as the Muppet Show. Unfortunately Kermit is no longer seen on Sesame Street-which is a shame.
Another is that some people viewing the "Healthy Foods" video featuring Cookie Monster rapping with a bunch of singing vegetables complain "OMG! This is horrible! Why is Cookie Monster not eating cookies?" This clip is actually from the 80's and has nothing to do with Cookie's future "Cookies are a sometimes food" makeover. Besides this one is a classic.
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Bugs Bunny cartoons are not supposed to feature a lisping Viking rabbit hunter enthusiastically professing his operatic love for a bunny in drag.
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Director / Contributor
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Apr 6, 2008, 12:56 PM
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Yes, the knowledge gap of 'animation' people (both in the industry or just big fans) and 'non-animation' people is astounding.
The most annoying examples I think can be seen on some facebook quizzes. I saw one that showed a picture of Marvin the Martian with the question "Who is this Disney character?" 
The most damaging stuff I think is the unfounded speculation people do with the "politically incorrect" cartoons for WWII or whenever. They assume they were made for kids and so then jump to the conclusion that "the cartoonists were trying to brainwash children with racist ideas" or some stupid thing like that. I read one comment (I forget whether it on youtube or not) that stated "Coal Black and De Sebben Dwarves was made to draft black people into the army". 
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http://exposure.cbc.ca/video/hansel-und-gretel
(This post was edited by damfine on Apr 6, 2008, 12:56 PM)
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Supervising Animator / Contributor
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Apr 6, 2008, 4:19 PM
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I must admit that it does annoy me when Walt Disney (or the Disney Studios) gets the credit for every theatrical cartoon character and animated film ever created. By that, I mean when unenlightened folks describe Bugs Bunny, Tom & Jerry or Woody Woodpecker as "Disney" characters, I can actually feel the vein forming on the side of my head. Granted, I know that when these shorts are/were shown on some local stations, the opening titles are often cut, but really, how hard is it to look for the opening production logo at the shorts' beginning? Even as a kid, I knew that the roaring lion meant MGM and the bullseye meant Lonney Tunes/Merrie Melodies.
It also annoys me when fans speak of Disney's versions of animated fairy tales as if Disney's was/is the definitive version. When someone will watch a DVD of The Little Mermaid and say "That's not the "real" Little Mermaid. No Sebastian or Flounder!" Or when Disney is credited as being the genius who "invented" the creations themselves. Walt Disney did not create Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. That was the Grimm Brothers. Similarly, it was not Walt Disney who created Peter Pan, Winnie the Pooh, or Pinocchio. They were all based on books written by JM Barrie, AA Milne, and Antonio Colodi, respectively.
People describing Droopy and Barney Bear as Looney Tunes characters isn't much better either.
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I love humanity, it's people that I have issues with.
(This post was edited by SpaceDemon on Apr 6, 2008, 4:22 PM)
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Apprentice
Posted:
Apr 6, 2008, 6:15 PM
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My first-year roommate in college and a friend of hers referred to *all* anime as Pokemon. And because I do anime art, they'd often ask, "Have you drawn any Pokemon people today?" My roommate also once commented that she thought people were "hypnotized" into watching anime. I guess her opinions don't really matter as well probably never see each other again anyway.
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I am NOT the next American Idol.
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Intern
Posted:
Apr 6, 2008, 9:02 PM
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It annoys me no end that so many people have been brain-washed into thinking Disney's Steamboat Willie was the first sound cartoon, when the Fleischer Bros. beat them by years.
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Director / Contributor
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Apr 6, 2008, 9:12 PM
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More accurately, they should say that Steamboat Willie was the first cartoon with synchronized sound. That's the main thing.
Also, in response to Spacedemon's post. It's also way too common for people to refer to every Looney Tunes & Merrie Melodies cartoon as "Bugs Bunny" cartoons whether he's in them or not. It happens all the time in the Mystery Cartoon section.
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http://exposure.cbc.ca/video/hansel-und-gretel
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Intern
Posted:
Apr 6, 2008, 9:49 PM
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Nope, not the first synchronized sound cartoon. The Fleischers used Lee DeForest's sound on film system, using an optical track and an exciter lamp, as eventually became the standard. I think Disney was using a synched record, similar to WB's "Vitaphone" process. The Fleischers only made 3 or 4 of those, and continued making silents until everyone began moving to sound. I'm not sure if there are any existing copies of the early Fleischer/DeForest sound films, so, Steamboat Willie might be the earliest existing sound cartoon.
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Directing Animator / Contributor
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Apr 6, 2008, 10:23 PM
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It's also way too common for people to refer to every Looney Tunes & Merrie Melodies cartoon as "Bugs Bunny" cartoons whether he's in them or not.
Too true. I remember an episode of MTV's game show Remote Control featuring the category known as 'The Laughing Guy', who would come on and laugh musical tunes and the contestants would have to guess the names of the songs. On one show the guy guffawed the first few bars of the 'Merrie Melodies' theme, "Merrily We Roll Along"; one contestant buzzed in and called it "Bugs Bunny", and the host Ken Ober gave him the 10 points! If I had been the host, he wouldn't have gotten those points. One, the name of the song isn't "Bugs Bunny", and two, every single Merrie Melody didn't feature Bugs, so why should that be considered a right answer?
Which brings me to another gripe: on far too many game shows, the cartoon questions are often insultingly easy. I get that not everyone is an expert like us, but questions like "Who is Bugs Bunny's Western cowboy enemy?" Come on, that's an insult to the intelligence of the average houseplant.
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Fanboyism (noun): The belief that Batman would win every fight he could ever be put in.
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Supervising Animator / Contributor
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Apr 7, 2008, 6:11 AM
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I'm also annoyed by "anime elitists" as I call them-people who go on message boards and type things like "anime > cartoons", or start topics like "Anime or Cartoons, which do you prefer?, which is straight up silly, IMO.
The word "anime" means "animation", therefore, anime IS cartoons, just cartoons from Japan. This elitist attitude is especially dumb when you consider the fact that in Japan, the term anime refers to ANYTHING that is animated, so in Japan, Mission Hill is just as much an anime as Ghost in the Shell. It's only the anime elitists (mostly arrogant Americans) who consider anime to be a separate animal from cartoons and put anime above cartoons. If anime isn't cartoons, then what is it? A scoop of chocolate ice cream?
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I love humanity, it's people that I have issues with.
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Animator
Posted:
Apr 7, 2008, 11:32 AM
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Is anyone here bugged by others' ignorance of animation? You know, folks who can't tell the difference between Filmation and Hanna-Barbera or who think all anime is Speed Racer or Dragon Ball Z or Pokemon or people who call all CG animated moves Pixar? I do!
I know this makes me sound like an elitist jerk/snob/know-it-all, but it bugs me, I must admit. Whenever someone describes Tom & Jerry or Droopy as Looney Tunes characters, my hair stands on end. I often blame it on the way they are marketed today since Time Warner owns both theirs and MGM's cartoon gems.
-One day years ago I was watching CBS's game show Press Your Luck starring the late Peter Tomarken. During the obligatory "share friendly banter with the contestants" segment of the show, Peter spoke to a woman who lived in Arizona, where real roadrunners live. Peter mentioned that most people have only ever seen the cartoon Road Runner, then the lady chimes in "Yes, the Disney one". The Road Runner? Disney??? I could feel my blood starting to boil. Heh, being reminded of another Press Your Luck moment where a Looney Tunes question gets answered wrong and Peter gets a call from Mel Blanc himself correcting him on what it was. That clip is on YouTube.
-My younger brother (who is a serious anime fan) rented a copy of the anime feature Tenchi Muyo in Love from the video store, and my family were all watching it together. About 35 minutes into the film, my mom asks, "When is Goku going to show up?" My 2 brothers and I exchanged quiet glances, then later on in private, the 3 of us shared a good laugh about it. Surprise your mom knows who Goku is (my course my mom would've cared less since she hasn't seen cartoons much since childhood and gets disgusted if an anime showed up on a premium channel like Encore Action (too bad she's passed away last year!
-Another anime generaliztion that bothers me is the common epithet, "All anime looks the same". To people who make that remark I usually say, "Oh, so you're telling me that Lupin III looks exactly like Voltron, which in turn looks exactly like Ghost in the Shell which looks exactly lke Crayon Shin-Chan." Half the time, I manage to make my point with that statement. The other half, I then have to explain what all of those shows are. I do that too sometimes, or I tell people to check out the Anime World Order podcast!
-A more recent example: I was having a conversation with some friends about Disney's Meet the Robinsons. One guy who really liked the movie gave this really eloquent impassioned speech, describing it as "possibly Pixar's best work". Then the rest of us had a polite chuckle and then had to inform him that Meet the Robinsons was not, in fact, Pixar. Almost like the reversal of someone thinking any non-Disney animated feature was made by Disney.
-Finally, not technically cartoons, but for years my relatives have called everything featuring puppet characters 'Muppets', as if there was no such thing as puppetry before Jim Henson was born. Geez, Henson was a legend in the medium, no denying that, but it's not like the man invented puppetry or anything. Punch & Judy anyone? :-)
Nowadays Muppets could practically be a brandname/genericized trademark for any TV show that has puppets on it (much like the way the trademarked "Claymation" gets used to refer to stop-motion films).
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Animator
Posted:
Apr 7, 2008, 11:34 AM
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Not exactly cartoons-but people on youtube whenever they see Kermit on Sesame Street clips get all confused like "What's Kermit doing on Sesame Street?" Those who have seen "Old School" Sesame Street know that Kermit had been on Sesame Street as well as the Muppet Show. Unfortunately Kermit is no longer seen on Sesame Street-which is a shame. And with Disney keeping tabs on the Muppets franchise, it will never be the same again.
Another is that some people viewing the "Healthy Foods" video featuring Cookie Monster rapping with a bunch of singing vegetables complain "OMG! This is horrible! Why is Cookie Monster not eating cookies?" This clip is actually from the 80's and has nothing to do with Cookie's future "Cookies are a sometimes food" makeover. Besides this one is a classic. I wish they grew up!
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Animator
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Apr 7, 2008, 11:44 AM
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I'm also annoyed by "anime elitists" as I call them-people who go on message boards and type things like "anime > cartoons", or start topics like "Anime or Cartoons, which do you prefer?, which is straight up silly, IMO.
The word "anime" means "animation", therefore, anime IS cartoons, just cartoons from Japan. This elitist attitude is especially dumb when you consider the fact that in Japan, the term anime refers to ANYTHING that is animated, so in Japan, Mission Hill is just as much an anime as Ghost in the Shell. It's only the anime elitists (mostly arrogant Americans) who consider anime to be a separate animal from cartoons and put anime above cartoons. If anime isn't cartoons, then what is it? A scoop of chocolate ice cream?
In the end, it's just "Japanese cartoons", nothing more or less, and nothing to be ashamed of. It's hard to get it out of some people that anime should not be considered so much a genre/style than just what we had been using to refer to anything animated in Japan anyway (what it had been).
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Director / Contributor
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Apr 7, 2008, 12:24 PM
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I'm also annoyed by "anime elitists" as I call them-people who go on message boards and type things like "anime > cartoons", or start topics like "Anime or Cartoons, which do you prefer?, which is straight up silly, IMO.
The word "anime" means "animation", therefore, anime IS cartoons, just cartoons from Japan. This elitist attitude is especially dumb when you consider the fact that in Japan, the term anime refers to ANYTHING that is animated, so in Japan, Mission Hill is just as much an anime as Ghost in the Shell. It's only the anime elitists (mostly arrogant Americans) who consider anime to be a separate animal from cartoons and put anime above cartoons. If anime isn't cartoons, then what is it? A scoop of chocolate ice cream?
I think the Simpsons managed to skewer both sides of the argument (those that feel anime is above average and those that feel it is below average). The two Simpsons kids are watching an anime show. Bart loves it but Lisa is noticeably confused. When she starts asking questions about it Bart's response is "Cartoons don't have to make sense." 
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http://exposure.cbc.ca/video/hansel-und-gretel
(This post was edited by damfine on Apr 7, 2008, 12:25 PM)
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Supervising Animator
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Apr 7, 2008, 12:25 PM
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One time while watching The Simpsons there was a typical adult humor gag and my Mom said, "Oh my word. And they made this for children?" My response was, "Since when was The Simpsons ever made for children?" She got my point. I was surprised by her comment. Especially after the mini-lectures I subjected her to (and to my friends). That's about what gets me the most. People who have this mindset that cartoons where invented for kids. Some people just need to be educated and they see the light, but others don't seem to listen to the facts.
(This post was edited by cartoonfan4ever on Apr 7, 2008, 12:27 PM)
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Supervising Animator
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Apr 7, 2008, 2:10 PM
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Here's a very cute and innocent example of cartoon ignorance. Several years ago I went to see Shrek 2 with a friend. Of course my mom drove us and she brought my older brother(who is in special ed and hardly ever watches tv.)along. Even though he had seen the first one with me, I decided to test him by asking him who Shrek was. His answer? Shrek was the donkey. After laughing at this,I gently corrected him.
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Bugs Bunny cartoons are not supposed to feature a lisping Viking rabbit hunter enthusiastically professing his operatic love for a bunny in drag.
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Directing Animator / Contributor
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Apr 7, 2008, 5:10 PM
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My local tv guide listings lists "Cartoon Network" as a channel for kids along with "The Disney Channel" and "Nickelodeon".
Of course, a viewing of the Adult Swim block on CN after 11pm will surprise some people.
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"The Stones...I love The Stones...I can't believe they're still doing it all these years...I watch them whenever I can...Fred and Barney."- Steven Wright
(This post was edited by artytoons on Apr 7, 2008, 5:12 PM)
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Directing Animator / Contributor
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Apr 8, 2008, 6:24 AM
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Another thing which has always ground my gears is when people refer to cartoon shorts such as Looney Tunes, Woody Woodpecker and Tom & Jerry cartoons as "episodes". (This also happens a lot in the Mystery Cartoon folder.) I understand that for many people, their first exposure to these shorts was in the form of syndicated packages on local and network TV stations (I was born in '69, so I'm one of those people), but anyone who does the research knows that these shorts were originally made for theaters, and the term "episode" was originally coined for radio and later, TV installments. So calling a movie short an episode is "cute....but it's wrong!", to quote Hollywood from 2 Stupid Dogs.
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Fanboyism (noun): The belief that Batman would win every fight he could ever be put in.
(This post was edited by Starburst on Apr 8, 2008, 6:26 AM)
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Animator
Posted:
Apr 8, 2008, 8:20 PM
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Another thing which has always ground my gears is when people refer to cartoon shorts such as Looney Tunes, Woody Woodpecker and Tom & Jerry cartoons as "episodes". (This also happens a lot in the Mystery Cartoon folder.) I understand that for many people, their first exposure to these shorts was in the form of syndicated packages on local and network TV stations (I was born in '69, so I'm one of those people), but anyone who does the research knows that these shorts were originally made for theaters, and the term "episode" was originally coined for radio and later, TV installments. So calling a movie short an episode is "cute....but it's wrong!", to quote Hollywood from 2 Stupid Dogs.
In some way, it's like how they're starting to use the term "seasons" to describe a change or varation in a particular anime show like it was made to be that way, when in fact, most anime shows in Japan don't really have seasons in the same manner we see with domestic shows, and if a show had been sequeled or a follow-up is made, it would be counted as a second series than a season.
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Key Animator
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Apr 8, 2008, 9:41 PM
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Not really.
But cartoons between 1929 and 1969 wern't really intended for children! And in the 50's, we had children watching these shows.
Now, there's shows aimed for children and for adults. It seems that they're now seperate.
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Thank God for kids who love obscure things-Lee Hazelwood (1929-2007)
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Director / Contributor
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Apr 9, 2008, 1:20 PM
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Hey, I remember a huuuuuge piece of animation ignorance. Remember that crazy university professor in Iran who taught his students that Walt Disney created Tom & Jerry for the soul purpose of promoting Israel and slamming Palestinians?
That was both disgusting and adorable at the same time.
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http://exposure.cbc.ca/video/hansel-und-gretel
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Supervising Animator / Contributor
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Apr 10, 2008, 11:35 AM
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Another (mild) rant concerning anime:
I don't know which side is more irritating: the Anime Haters, cuckoo birds who have seen 2 or 3 Japanimated shows and have decided that they despise ALL anime based on their extremely limited knowledge of the genre, claiming that anime is all big hair, skinny big eyed girls, mechas, magic and dragons, ignoring the fact that there are (literally) hundreds of anime shows and different types of anime series to choose from, or the Anime Elitists, anime loving snobs who hang out on message boards typing statements like "If it's not from Japan, it's CRAP!!". They're the ones who worship anime just because it's anime, as if the animation from Japan is automatically superior to the animation from every other nation.
The funny thing is that these anime loving snobs are almost always uptight Americans. Rarely (if ever) have I met native citizens of Japan who take such a pompous, elitist attitude towards their own animation style. I'll bet that even real Japanese people would tell these guys to take it down a notch.
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I love humanity, it's people that I have issues with.
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Zinc Saucier / Moderator
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Apr 11, 2008, 1:22 PM
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I think some of the points made in this thread are valid, but others are definitely elitist. The best comment I've seen so far is...
Some people just need to be educated and they see the light, but others don't seem to listen to the facts.
That's the entire point. A lot of ignorance is exactly that, ignorance. It's not spiteful, willful, or anything else- it's a lack of knowledge or understanding. The problem comes when someone who is ignorant is corrected, but doesn't care enough to assimilate the new knowledge and for example, no longer insist on referring to every Looney Tunes short as a "Bugs Bunny" cartoon.
I think it's that kind of attitude that irks me more than anything else.
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AnimationHQ
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Supervising Animator
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Apr 14, 2008, 12:10 PM
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I found a good one-it's hillarious yet makes me cringe at the same time. On Deviantart someone commented that the artist's work(a picture of a frog) reminded him/her of "One Froggy Evening". The artist's reply-"you are talking about that short film directed by Chuck Norris? (I never saw it but I found something about in the wikipedia hehe )"
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Bugs Bunny cartoons are not supposed to feature a lisping Viking rabbit hunter enthusiastically professing his operatic love for a bunny in drag.
(This post was edited by Glowworm on Apr 14, 2008, 12:11 PM)
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