Directing Animator
Posted:
Sep 13, 2007, 3:44 PM
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The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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I got this idea from GAC, who have consolidated all the threads and posts which discuss this heinous abomination in their own Forum into one single thread.
Bruce, Dave, other mods, what do you guys think about that; can we close the previous threads in our Forum and then just link them through this one for the sake of simplicity?
Since Mezz inadvertently deleted the previous thread dealing with Warner's hypocritical press release on Tuesday; I figured this was as good a time as any to do this.
Anyway, here's what one poster over there had to say about a possible boycott of T&J Spotlight, Vol. 3. I think what he says makes a lot of sense. I happened to be thinking along the same lines yesterday, before I read his post; in that, even if we had 10,000 die-hard fans willing to boycott the DVD set, it would only amount to just under $250,000.00 in lost revenue to a multi-million corporation like Time-Warner... hardly a drop in the bucket, if you ask me:
Three dozen fanatics organizing a boycott on an enthusiasts' online forum won't register the teeniest blip on the Warner corporate radar... with the recent admission that cartoons were deliberately left off, it's clear that the WB family division is concerned only with maximum sales, and that's done by chasing the soccer-mom demographic, where there is exactly ZERO discrimination, and no complaints registered or discs returned over quality issues.
The better course of action is to solicit a compelling spokesman such as Jerry Beck to sell the suits on the notion that MGM cartoons need to be moved over to the collectors / archives division... starting with a Tex Avery box.
The ace in our pocket is that the very-nicely-done Popeye and Looney Tunes are (presumably) selling well enough to justify such a move... a Tex box should sell comparably well, paving the way for a proper 6-disc T&J box a few years from now once the shoddy Spotlight sets are played out.
Me?... I dunno... I bought T&J v2 (used), ordered a replacement disc that hasn't shown up yet... guess I could stick with my laserdiscs, but if I find used Spotlights for cheap, why not?
Waving my arms in indignation over 'the unacceptable T&J situation' seems as valuable as WB hinting we should buy the Droopy set to ensure delivery of an Avery box – i.e., pointless... better to petition for better future product.
It seems to have worked for Popeye... and Woody.
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
(This post was edited by zavkram on Sep 13, 2007, 3:48 PM)
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Forum Admin
Posted:
Sep 14, 2007, 10:26 AM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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I personally do not think boycotts really work that well. However, I also think consumers should make informed decisions.So this thread has a lot of merit.
GO for it!
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Dave Koch
Big Cartoon DataBase
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Jpeg Master / Moderator
Posted:
Sep 14, 2007, 7:41 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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Linking the threads together is Dave's call. I am all for this as well, but I feel we must call on St. Jude, the patron saint of lost causes. I realize it's all about money as far as business is concerned, but give us an option to preserve our beloved cartoons! Feeling beaten up on this one, I'm at a loss for words.
What past is prologue.
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Supervising Animator / Contributor
Posted:
Sep 14, 2007, 8:02 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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Wow, I think you're going crazier than me, Mark! Yeesh, it's only two cartoons being removed... as long as WB does eventually put them on DVD, you shouldn't go on a crazy riot!
If anyone is paying any attention to me, I personally think that those two cartoons were excluded from this set for marketing purposes (WB's ideal marketing plan: release a Deitch-Jones T&J set, with those two extra cartoons as bonus features).
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(This post was edited by CrazyCam on Oct 26, 2007, 9:21 PM)
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Lead Animator / Contributor
Posted:
Sep 14, 2007, 8:16 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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I am all for this as well, but I feel we must call on St. Jude, the patron saint of lost causes.
My favorite toast is from Russia. Translated, it goes: "Let us drink to the success of our hopeless endeavor." So, if we speak up, at least we have the satisfaction of our own sound judgment providing lubrication as the whole damn business slides down the drain. Or, to use history, the band aboard the Titanic didn't save anybody by playing to the last aboard a sinking ship, but people remember that they played…
So, what shall we tell the power?
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Jpeg Master / Moderator
Posted:
Sep 14, 2007, 11:23 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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We can tell them that these Golden Age Cartoons mean a lot to us! So much that we:
1) Have several forums out on the internet to answer questions & keep the fire alive for these gems!
2) Start off movie night with a classic cartoon!
3) Buy t-shirts with our favorite cartoon characters on them!
4) Will purchase any classic cartoon DVD of our childhood past, even if it's edited by the PC police!
5) Will pay extra for programming with Directv/Dishnetwork/Time Warner Cable just to get the Boomerang channel to watch these classics.
6) Know the reason why they don't sell so well, is because the lack of publicity and promotion! They promoted the heck out of Looney Tunes "Back in Action" with minimal succes, but I would of paid $10 bucks to sit in the theatre and watch an hour and a half of Looney Tunes! What an idea!!!
7) Sit with our younger generations and laugh for hours upon hours and have to explain why these are so much better than the current Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon stuff.
Some one else take over, I'm depressed...
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Apprentice
Posted:
Sep 15, 2007, 7:22 AM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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It is hard to believe that a company with as many releases as WHV can mess up all 3 volumes. I try not to be cynical but maybe they are trying to milk as much money as they can on T and J consumers before re-releasing a complete uncut unedited comprehensive Golden collection somewhere down the line.
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" Pulu see Bagoomba ! "
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Directing Animator
Posted:
Sep 15, 2007, 4:28 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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Thanks for everyone's positive feedback. Dave, since you've obviously given your blessing to this thread can we go ahead and just link the older posts relating specifically to T&J Vol. 3? I think the easiest way to do this is to lock the existing threads and then create hyperlinks for them here in this one in a single reply post.
On the subject of boycotting Vol. 3; I'm still all for that, but I believe we need to take things up a notch or two...
We really need to get the word out about WHV's hypocrisy and wholesale butchery of the MGM cartoons to anyone who will listen. I'm talking about the national media, the American Film Institute, the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and anyone else who is concerned with the preservation of our nation's animated legacy.
At the same time we have to be careful not to come across as just a bunch of disgruntled, aging cartoon geeks. In everything let's remember to take the high road and refrain from any bellicose behavior. I personally want to apologize for having referred to the people at WHV's Family Division (and even Sander Schwartz) as "idiots" and "nimrods" in some of my previous posts. Yes, they really botched up the Tom and Jerry boxed sets; but that doesn't mean we have to resort to name-calling, that's just childish...
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
(This post was edited by zavkram on Sep 15, 2007, 4:29 PM)
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Key Animator
Posted:
Sep 17, 2007, 6:25 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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We can tell them that these Golden Age Cartoons mean a lot to us! So much that we: 1) Have several forums out on the internet to answer questions & keep the fire alive for these gems! 2) Start off movie night with a classic cartoon! 3) Buy t-shirts with our favorite cartoon characters on them! 4) Will purchase any classic cartoon DVD of our childhood past, even if it's edited by the PC police! 5) Will pay extra for programming with Directv/Dishnetwork/Time Warner Cable just to get the Boomerang channel to watch these classics. 6) Know the reason why they don't sell so well, is because the lack of publicity and promotion! They promoted the heck out of Looney Tunes "Back in Action" with minimal succes, but I would of paid $10 bucks to sit in the theatre and watch an hour and a half of Looney Tunes! What an idea!!! 7) Sit with our younger generations and laugh for hours upon hours and have to explain why these are so much better than the current Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon stuff. Some one else take over, I'm depressed...
Taking over....
Great Idea. Now let me add something....
1) How many Times was Donald Duck seen without a shirt on?
2) Speaking of Donald Duck, how about the Three Caballeros?
3) Can you customize one?
4) Speaking of The Three Caballeros, did Britain edit the smoking out?
5) I did that, but I got almost every Loopy de Loop cartoon that I can get my hands on. And don't do buisness with Dish Network.
6) Speaking of Loopy de Loop, H-B should've promoted his cartoons after they stopped releasing his toons in theateres. (Or have it promoted by a movie such as 'Dr. Strangelove' since they were both owned by the same studio.)
7) I'm not having any children, but if my brother ever gets married (long story) I will show my nephew all the shows I grew up with prior to 1996, especially Garfield and Friends. (I can tell him that the movies were never as good as the series.)
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Thank God for kids who love obscure things-Lee Hazelwood (1929-2007)
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Directing Animator
Posted:
Sep 20, 2007, 6:30 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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I went browsing on the web today and I've read on other forums that there is the possibility that WHV may issue replacement discs which contain the missing cartoons Casanova Cat and Mouse Cleaning, plus an unedited version of His Mouse Friday. I'm not holding my breath, though... my thinking is that the WHV customer service agents are just paying lip-service to whoever calls up to complain.
On the plus side, the word is getting around. A number of members at GAC and other film/animation websites have resolved not to purchase the set. The number of dissenting reviews on Amazon is growing, and I've heard that Warner Home Video Executives regularly read the customer comments there.
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
(This post was edited by zavkram on Sep 21, 2007, 7:14 AM)
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Jpeg Master / Moderator
Posted:
Sep 20, 2007, 6:38 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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Does anyone know what the actual edits are?
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Directing Animator
Posted:
Sep 20, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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In Casanova Cat there is a scene where Tom blows cigar-smoke on Jerry, giving him a blackface. Tom then picks up the plate that Jerry is standing on and either holds it over a lit candle or over a lit match... in any case, Jerry gets a hot-foot and starts doing a tap-dance to some minstral-tune on the soundtrack.
In Mouse Cleaning, there is a penultimate scene where Jerry diverts a truck delivering coal and sends the coal pouring into the living room window. When Mammy Two-Shoes opens the front door there is an avalanche of coal that knocks her over. When Tom emerges from the coal he is in blackface from the neck up. M2S, thinking that Tom is... well, you know, asks him if he's seen a no-account cat around. Tom starts shuffling away and speaking like Steppin' Fetchit. His ruse is discovered when he emerges completely from the pile of coal; the rest of his body is not covered in soot.
I just sent you a link, Bruce, to a website forum that shows a number of edits that have been done over the years.
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
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Supervising Animator
Posted:
Sep 21, 2007, 9:16 AM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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To be honest-that scene from "Mouse Cleaning" sounds hillarious.
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Bugs Bunny cartoons are not supposed to feature a lisping Viking rabbit hunter enthusiastically professing his operatic love for a bunny in drag.
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Directing Animator
Posted:
Sep 21, 2007, 2:38 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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I remember seeing the Chuck Jones "remake" of Mouse Cleaning on the CBS Saturday Morning Tom and Jerry Show, back in the late 1960's. That version replaced M2S either with a white, Irish maid or with a white housewife. In any case she was voiced by June Foray instead of Lillian Randolph, and the scene with Tom emerging in blackface was either cut or redrawn.
Those enlarged pics of M2S in that link I provided, although somewhat pixillated, have better contrast than the ones previously posted here in the Forum; and consequently reveal her face better. You know who she reminds me of? The heavy-set mother on that ABC sit-com from the 1970's: What's Happening? 
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
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Directing Animator
Posted:
Sep 21, 2007, 2:42 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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To be honest-that scene from "Mouse Cleaning" sounds hillarious. Well you can actually see it unedited on YouTube. I remember seeing a link to it on GAC's Forum. I didn't try downloading it because my dial-up connection is too slow. No matter, I previously saw both cartoons complete and unedited on TV, not long before the PC-Police began their "clean-sweep" of the airwaves.
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
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Directing Animator
Posted:
Sep 24, 2007, 5:18 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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Will wonders never cease? I actually received my replacement discs for Volumes 1 and 2 this past week! I honestly didn't think I was ever going to get these; I kept expecting to receive a form letter from WHV, saying that the discs were out of stock indefinitely.
I played all three discs (Vol. 1, Disc 1 and Vol. 2, Discs 1 and 2) yesterday and today and can report that all the cartoons were completely uncensored! And to think, gee whiz, it only took me 5 months to get these...way to go, Warner Home Video!
Now, if you would be so kind as to start issuing replacement discs with the missing and truncated cartoons for Volume 3; I just might consider purchasing a copy.
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
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Inbetweener / Contributor
Posted:
Sep 25, 2007, 2:02 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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As for myself, I'm clinging to my 6-volume Chinese BUDDHA VIDEO set till past the time hell freezes over. (The set DOES have the dialogueless HIS MOUSE FRIDAY, and the SATURDAY EVENING PUSS with white girl--but it DOES have the blackface scenes in MOUSE CLEANING & CASANOVA CAT intact.....and the other shorts from the "Mammy" period have Her Nibs herself in all her unadulterated glory.)
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"As we say in Swahili: 'OOP!'"
--George of the Jungle
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Directing Animator
Posted:
Sep 27, 2007, 4:43 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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What really makes me mad, aside from the entire censorship issue, is that a number of the earlier cartoons (i.e. pre-CinemaScope) in these sets are somewhat gritty-looking. The colors are generally good, but there remain a lot of artifacts which could have been cleaned-up better. Those aren't all dust-specks on there...
The bottom line is that WHV has not made a concerted effort to restore these films in the same way that they have done with the Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies.
Granted, original elements for all of the 1940's titles are lost forever; but a large number of those cartoons were re-issued in the 1950's, meaning that new negatives and subsequent prints would have been made. WHV must have better prints of some of these cartoons somewhere in their vaults.
Hopefully, in 10 years or so, someone at WHV will see fit to restoring these cartoons the way they should have been the first time around.
In the meantime, we'll just have to make do with the cartoons on Volumes 1 and 2.
There still seems to be some confusion over whether or not WHV plans to issue replacement discs for Volume 3 at this time. Right now it seems to depend on which customer service representative speaks with you and/or which customer service phone number you call. I think I'll mosey on over to Amazon and see if there's any news...
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
(This post was edited by zavkram on Sep 27, 2007, 4:44 PM)
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Apprentice
Posted:
Oct 1, 2007, 3:32 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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well I finally called about getting the replacement discs for the first two sets... they didnt ask me about if i had the originals or anything, and gave me 2-3 weeks delivery (doubt it). I asked about Volume 3 (which i still havent purchased) and they said so far no replacements
thanks for your help Zavkram
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Animator / Contributor
Posted:
Oct 3, 2007, 11:25 AM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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Permit me to wonder if the inferior treatment of the Tom and Jerry cartoon releases by Warner Home Video reflects their regard for the MGM titles they acquired from Turner Entertainment.
Could it be that the Looney Tunes Golden Collections have received commendable treatment before their release because the Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies cartoons were produced in Warner Brothers' own animation department (no longer extant), whereas the Tom and Jerry cartoons were produced at the rival studio Metro Goldwyn Mayer? Here seems to me a case of WHV favoring their house titles significantly over their acquired titles.
Perhaps we are seeing naked studio jealousy: Tom and Jerry are not / cannot / shall not be seen as superior to Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck, in the view of Warner Home Video. Therefore, the Looney Tunes Golden Collections get the first-class treatment, while the Tom and Jerry Spotlight Collections fly coach, so to speak.
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Directing Animator
Posted:
Oct 3, 2007, 7:41 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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An interesting theory, OUB, and one not without some credence. I have maintained a similar theory regarding WHV's seeming ambivalance towards the MGM cartoon library. My feeling is that they want to make as much money off the MGM cartoons as they can; while at the same time issuing the cartoons as cheaply as possible. This might explain, in part, why they keep using the same shoddy digital masters for each subsequent video incarnation (VHS, LaserDisc, DVD).
The theory doesn't hold water quite as well, however, when one considers the effort and expense taken on WHV's part to restore and issue the classic theatrical Popeye cartoons.
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"Sit, Ubu, sit... good dog!" ("Arf"!)
(This post was edited by zavkram on Oct 3, 2007, 7:42 PM)
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Apprentice
Posted:
Oct 3, 2007, 8:49 PM
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Re: The Official T&J Spotlight Complaints Thread
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I think that WB thinks Tom & Jerry/MGM shorts are second rate compared to Looney Tunes and popeye and they don't think they're popular enough to put the effort into their releases. As for the censorship, I'd have to agree with what zavkram said in another thread: with t&j tales ont.v. and dvd and some video games (I have the Nintendo DS version) I think they are afraid of offending someone and are omitting scenes and entire shorts. It's a shame because they could have used this as an oppourtunity to expose a new generation to the classics and increase sales instead of quietly slipping out the release in shame....just a random thought: to those in Canada doesn't it seem dumb that t&j spotlight collection 3 is 'intended for the adult collector' yet the Canadian rating is 'G' suitable for all??
btw, does anyone actually own or know anyone who does own the third spotlight collection or 6-disc set? I'm still wondering if the replacement discs are in the first two sets and if there is anything else censored on the third set other than the two missing shorts and missing audio on His Mouse Friday?
thanks
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